A team of Monthly Ajrak had a special interview with world renowned spiritual personality His Holiness Syedna Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi which is presented here to the readers.                           

      In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

We want to have a sitting with you for the sake of our magazine because by the grace of God you are a leader of universal spiritual organization so we want to ask a few questions from you.

I may introduce first. He is our Chief editor Syed Naeem Gilani Sahib, he is Rahat Ali Rahat - our city editor and I am Chief Bureau - Shafkat Hussian.

In fact “the origin of man” is very easy for him, who can understand it and complex for the one who cannot understand. But basically every human is thirsty of having guidance and curious. This is the reason we see human bowing down somewhere, in every religion and in every sect. At some places he is bowing down before God, somewhere he is bowing down in front of idols but…….

Syedna Gohar Shahi: For Allah.

Shafqat Hussian: For Allah, but you know from our Islamic point of view we say that for Allah. But those who are infidels for us are also bowing down somewhere.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: He too is bowing for Allah.

Shafqat Hussain: He is bowing down for Allah; however these standards are set by worldly people like us. In light of those things I want ask you certain questions.

Shafqat Hussian: Shah Sahib my first question is that what is Self (nafas)?

Syedna Gohar Shahi:  I will explain in details. When Adam[AS] was created out of clay, and this is there in our books, it is also in the Quran that Adam[AS] was created out of clay, when Satan saw he (Satan) spat upon him[Adam] and there became a whole where the spit was fallen. The germ of this spit went inside and was called self (nafas). That germ that very satanic germ was called self (nafas). Then Holy Prophet (PBUH) said that when a man is born, a satanic jinni is also born along with him. The companions asked, if he was born with you (PBUH) as well? (Holy Prophet) said, definitely he was born but he too became a Muslim due to my company. That self (nafas) is a germ of Satan. Body is pure, that clay was pure too, other spirits were pure as well but due to that self (nafas) the body became unclean. As there are jinni who have the senses, in the same way self (nafas) too has got the senses. In a dream when you go out and roam around, you don’t go out by yourself because you are lying in your bed; your self (nafas) goes out. He wanders about in the councils of Satan because he has a satanic power and with the help of satanic power he wanders among the Satins.

Shafqat Hussian: but in a dream if we have vision of some elder (saint) or we visit some good place?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: I tell you. There are some other powers as well in your body. There are Spiritual powers as well in your body. There are satanic, animal and spiritual as well. Which ever gets stronger, he inclines towards that (inner body). Since this self (nafas) possesses more power. If the other spiritual comes that would have happened just once or twice in a year where as this happens every day. The Saints make their way towards the jungles to overcome this self (nafas). They avoid eating and drinking because he gets energy from this food. His food is present in the wheat that’s why Adam [AS] was forbidden to eat, because it is a food of self (nafas). So Saints rather kill it or they do clean it up by divine light. Once it is cleaned, it is called satisfied self (Nafas-e- Mutmana).  If it is impure, it is called nafas-e- amara but it possesses senses as the jinn possess senses, it too possesses senses.

Shafqat Hussian: In the same context, another question has come into mind! Creation of universe and man is going through a revolutionary process and his only purpose and goal is that man may reach perfection. The whole of this universe is made just for our sake, God made the universe first and then we were created so we are going through a revolutionary process and along with this when we were created we were assigned two duties; Rights of Allah and rights of human. Now this path of mysticism from you is there and being human I also wish that I may have closeness with Allah but I am going through those processes as well from which the prophets, messengers and saints have gone through. So regarding those processes have we certain responsibilities, some responsibilities are for Allah and others are for the human beings?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: I have understood completely what you want to say. All those people sitting here have their own business and they chant Allah Allah as well. We have not stopped them (from worldly affairs). Now turn your heart towards Allah and remain busy with your hands in the worldly tasks.

Shafkat Hussian: No, now everybody can not go towards jungles?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: We have not asked them to go to jungles. Whom did we ask to go to jungles!

Shafqat Hussian: Alright! It means that by moving around in this world, we can find Allah?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Sure, can find.

Shafqat Hussian: Being in these duties as well?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Only very few go to jungles. Almighty Allah gets only one to the jungle then guidance is provided to the citizens through him. Then the citizens don’t need to go to the jungle. Then he makes their heart busy in chanting Allah Allah and the hearts keep on chanting Allah, whereas hands go on working. They do have wife and children but their works are blessed.  Their children are pious, child is born and he keeps on chanting Allah Allah and then their children become pious as Allah pervades into their blood. Our purpose is that you chant Allah Allah by your hearts so that your hearts might be cleansed. Now there are rights for humans as well as rights for Allah. Some times rights of human are given more preference. On which base this priority is given? If you are just following the rights of humans and have left the rights of Allah then it is useless. When is the priority given? You are offering your prayers so you are busy in rights of Allah and you see a blind person falling then you should leave the prayers and save that blind person. If you are offering your prayers or performing recitation and your wife is suffering from colic, so leave that recitation and take her to hospital. You left your prayers and recitation that will be forgiven by Allah. Now labour pain was very cruel that will not be forgiven. There is forgiveness for rights of humans. You have just taken the rights of humans and have left the rights of Allah. That’s how the rights of humans are given more priority.

Shafqat Hussian: Well, “The obedience to God, the obedience to Prophet (PBUH), obedience to saints” Obedience to God is commonly understood. Can the obedience to Prophet be also understood?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Saints are those who are your guides. So they used to be leaders (Ameer) in those times. Ameer-ul-momineen (the leader of momins), now there are no leaders of that kind any more. Badshahi Silsla (Kingdom ship) is a democratic way. In older times people were spiritual. After the prophet, the spiritual people used to be counted in governance, means leaders.

Shafqat Hussian: What standard can we set for the saints? Even they are present today, because the world can not be without guidance!

Syedna Gohar Shahi: But the standard is that as thief is recognized by thief, a saint is recognized by saint. A thief is sitting here and a thief is sitting there once they stare at each other, automatically will understand that they belong to the same profession. A saint is here and a saint is there, their hearts will collide. Allah is present in both of them, so sentimentality will occur and to recognize them their must be Allah Allah in your too. Once the chanting of Allah will start in your heart then you will be able to recognize a saint otherwise you will never be able to recognize. Well Allah is present in your heart as well as in his heart so there will be collision. The chanting of Allah will become fast. The power will be doubled and then the Allah Allah will be fast. You’ll understand that he is a spiritual person. For him it is in the prophetic tradition, the reorganization of saint is,       “the one in whose gathering Allah Allah gets start”. It is in the prophetic tradition.

Shafqat Hussian: The one, by looking at whom Allah comes into mind?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Allah can come into mind by looking at crippled and lame.

Shafqat Hussian: This is what I was thinking; Allah comes into mind by looking at anything which is against the nature.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Yes, Allah comes into mind.

Shafqat Hussain: Yes, by looking at normal to abnormal Allah can come into mind.

Syedna Gohar Shahi:  No it’s not like that. Once chanting of Allah Allah is started within, by sitting in his company. Allah Allah can be started inside you as well. He is a saint and Allah has a relation with a saint. To which organ of the saint Allah has a relation? It is with the heart. Heart hears the voice of heart.

Shafqat Hussian: Well, what is this philosophy “Die before death”? What is this concept?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: with smile… This is not understood but if we make it, this can be understood.

Shafqat Hussian:  You please say. The One who has sent us to you; He will give us the wisdom as well. Our meeting with you is not an ordinary thing because these things are decided up above.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: You would have heard this as well. “Elam-ul- hajab Al Akbar” is a big septum. You would have heard, “wealth is also a big septum”. This is a septum present on the brain of the man that is called Hajab Al Akbar (the biggest septum). Human is aware that he is going to die; he is not going to be in this world (forever). There is no guarantee of this moment and the next. But yet he is unable to think.  The cause of this curtain is a septum present upon his wisdom. If you are asked to go to Murree for two months, you will take some money along with your blanket. You will stay there for only two months so that you may not face any difficulty over there. The place where you will go for the whole of your life, why can’t you think about that? Why can’t you think? That is because of that septum. When that curtain is taken away? When some one is about to die, at that moment Satan takes away its curtain., so that he (Satan) will put it on someone else’s mind. The more children are being born. But at that moment when the curtain is taken off; instead of sorry nothing is gained to him. When the curtain is unveiled he says, “If I am given a chance I will do something”. He says that after the curtain is being unveiled. As long as the curtain is present nothing comes into mind….. I may do something and show it or when that curtain is unveiled? Die before death. Now it is unveiled at the time of death. It is in the prophetic tradition;

“Die before death”.

This is your heart and it is a creature. It does the Zikr, so fix it, make it busy, and involve it (by indicating towards the spiritual entities). Make this self (nafas) busy in Zikr. Then a creature is present in your head; the one that is named as proud (Anna) by which you think. That creature is not present in an animal that’s why it is unable to think. If it possesses that creature which helps in thinking then water and grass is available in the jungles as well so why is it bearing your slavery. It has no (power to) thinking. At the time this septum does the Zikr of “Yah Hu” by the help of this creature.  By Zikr of Yah Hu that curtain is removed. That realized at the time of death and this one has realized before he died that why did he came into this world? Didn’t you get? The curtain has been taken off before death. He has realized before his death that why did he come into this world! Then he will try less for this world and more for the next world. Yes we do for this world, but we do very little for this world that we do for our family and children, rest we do for Allah. You people drink and eat where as we too drink and eat but our curtain has been torn out. Before coming into this line whenever I got out from home I used to tell my wife I will be back within two days. Now when I get out of my home I say who knows when Allah will take me away! So do the ablution and get out because that septum has been torn out. Now we think that but before this that thought never used to come into the mind. This is what is “Before death”, that you take away that curtain before death and that is taken off with the Zikr of mind that is why these Zikr are taught.

Shafqat Hussian: Can this be meant that impassions that occur in you should be crushed.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: They can’t be crushed out; they are crushed by those things. They are Naar (fire) so unless there is no light (Noor) how can they be crushed out! I tell my experience. I had impassions and bad dreams all the time. The days and nights were spent in bad dreams and satanic thoughts but the time since I have got this recipe of Allah Allah, all of that has gone away. Now if anything comes into the mind, we say that whatever the way Allah wishes, it will happen so, therefore, no need of thinking. This Allah Allah is an weapon against such things. This is an instrument of cutting the evil desires and that curtain. Allah is Allah. The evil desires can not get out, if the chanting of Allah Allah is not there. Evil desires are related to Satan. And faith is from Allah which is related to Allah and that comes into heart, whereas the other one comes into self (nafas). When your self (nafas) is cleansed, so your heart becomes sacred so where will those evil desires come from!

Shafqat Hussian: well, a question arises. You said in your speech that “Allah provides the guidance whom He wishes”. I am a sinner and I wish too. I mean you said that……….

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Whom He wishes and whenever He wishes.

Shafqat Hussian: I also start chanting Allah Allah but that does not start inside.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: It means that Allah does not want. Now the question is why He does not want for you.

Shafqat Hussian: Now what is my fault? It was in my control only that I may try and have devotion.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: No, yours is the big fault. Now you tell me are you the real one? Or some one who is inside that is a real one?

Shafqat Hussian: The one who is inside is the real.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: You will be returned into the dust that will not return into the dust that was before also and will remain at the end as well. The one that has come from above is present inside, is reaching the completion. Didn’t you get? When Allah made the souls, He asked, “Allasat Barbakam”( Am I not your God?). “Kaloo Balla” (Everybody accepted that you are our God). Then God showed the pleasures of the world and many of the spirits rushed forth towards the tastes of the world and that became their destiny. Many of the spirits rushed towards Allah that became their destiny. Many spirits remained neutral they didn’t go either side. The saints came for them who were neutral. Now the question is that Allah could have sent to hell or paradise whomever at that time. What was the need of brining them over here? From here also the souls will be going not the bodies, so then what was the need of putting them in these bodies? But then if whoever was sent to the hell, he would have said, “O Allah what did I do?” Allah would have said, “You just professed”. (Souls would have said), “ It was just prostrated, but was not acted upon”. Allah brought the spirits down for this very purpose. Then you acted upon it also. This body is for them to do such act otherwise those souls were neither men nor women. They were neither men nor women so what sort of accountability from them. This body has become an example for them then pleasures were put into this, self (nafas) was put into this. Then those who asked for the world, satanic tastes were put into them and then when that child was born two satins were attached with him that he should not go towards the virtue. They are such kind of people. His brother; that soul demanded God and two angels were put with him that don’t let him to go towards evil. What is the reason? They are the sons of the same father and one of them has gone into the virtue and the other one has gone into the evil things. According to that affirmation angels were attached, and satins were stuck with the other one. Now the one who did not have any affirmation, which was not given any chance and then for him the saints were sent for them. He is an infernal from above and he is heavenly from up above. Now this is what is for those who are neutral and that remains between Islam and infidelity. The Holy Prophet (PBUH) says, “In morning a Muslim and in the evening an infidel” so any society whoever catches him, he is like them, that’s why the guidance is for them.

Shafqat Hussian: Shah Sahib; Man and God is a common concept and everybody knows about it. When a Man does become a transcendent man?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Man is a transcendent, if Allah is there in him but if there is no Allah, he is inferior. If Satan comes into him then he is inferior but if Allah enters into him then he is transcendent. Then the question is about Holy Prophet (PBUH); he is also called transcendent man, before going to Ascension (Heavenly Journey) Holy Prophet (PBUH) was called a transcendent man. Before Ascension there was shadow of Holy Prophet, but at the time He (PBUH) went to Ascension, (when the iron is thrown into the fire it also becomes fire). When He went before the light, He (PBUH) too was converted into light. After Ascension there was no shadow of Him (PBUH). Brother if there was no shadow in the childhood it must have been learnt.  Halima used to make him bath so she would had known. People must have learnt before this. After Ascension there was no shadow of Holy Prophet (PBUH) as He (PBUH) was converted into light. Before this; He (PBUH) can be called a transcendent man. After that He (PBUH) must be called a divine light. As the iron caught the power after going into fire, in the same way Holy Prophet (PBUH) possessed the power, going into light.

Shafqat Hussian: Well, Shah Sahib now I am coming towards your main teaching. This conversation which we are having, its some part is for on the record and some conversation is for our own betterment. However I will try that the confusion which I have in my mind might be cleared somehow. One is "Ishq e Majazi" and second is the passionate love and your journey is for passionate love. The people who have gone before you or whom you are following. The lesson which they have given us…….

Sarkar Gohar Shahi: About "Ishq e Majazi" (love of soul with another human soul).

Shafqat Hussian: About passionate love because the "Ishq e Majazi" is just a materialism.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: No, you don’t even understand the "Ishq e Majazi" (love of soul with another human soul). This worldly love is called a selfish love. Do you understand?  You love each other cause of your self (ego) or money or for some other some greed. So if there is no money and no other greed, then it will be meaningless for you and you withdraw.  This is called love for self (ego). The "Ishq e Majazi" (love of soul with another human soul) is a part of the sainthood. Lailla and Majnun had that "Ishq e Majazi". They lived together alone but lived as brother and sister. This was their "Ishq e Majazi" (love of soul with another human soul). Once Mirza and Sahiba came, they mate. So Allah brought the "Ishq e Majazi" (love of soul with another human soul) to the end. Now there is no "Ishq e Majazi" (love of soul with another human soul).

Shafqat Hussian: If we go deep into it, we find that that “Majaz” means opposite and opposite is always of something real.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Real is sainthood. The opposite of sainthood is "Ishq e Majazi". The opposite of passionate love is "Ishq e Majazi”.  If you love man and it is not related to self then it is "Ishq e Majazi". If you love Allah then it is passionate love.

Shafqat Hussian: Passionate love, well I am also coming towards this. Theosophists have described three stages of passionate love that we find in studies.

"Fana-fi-shaikh", “Fana-fi-Rasool”, “Fana-fi-Allah”. “Fana-fi-Allah” is understood by any Muslim, I can also understand it.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: “Fana-fi-shaikh” is not understood.

Shafqat Hussian: “Fana-fi-Rasool” is also understood that He (PBUH) is the head of all the prophets and all the jinni and human beings accept the dignity and position of the Prophet (PBUH).

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Yes, that’s correct.

Shafqat Hussian:  Well, however I too respect him (PBUH) and if I be “Fana-fi-Rasool”, who will be lucky than me.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: "Fana-fi-shaikh" is not understood.

Shafqat Hussian: Well, once the stage of "Fana-fi-shaikh" comes at that time the apparent meaning of frailty that appears before me is that my individuality be obliterate and He be in the command.

Syedna Gohar Shahi:  No, its purpose is not that you have thought i.e to perish. That’s not the purpose. Shaikh has certain entities within himself. They are possessed by you as well. Yes, there are seven entities and 9 bodies (Jusse). There are 16 entities and he teaches these entities. As in the dream one of your entities gets out. Then he takes out his all the entities in the dream. There is process for it that is called Chilla (meditate), we need to do the chilla (meditation) otherwise worship can be done at home as well. Then what is the need of going out from homes and to jungles! They are not insane; who do the poetry and get the people started they are not crazy. They just go into jungles to take those entities out that are inside of them that’s why they lessen the eating. They do chanting of Allah Allah more, so that they may possess more divine power.  For this there is an incident of Majdad Sahib as well. Somebody said that I saw you in Khana Kaba the same day; somebody said I saw you somewhere else. He replied “I did not go there”. Some one else said I saw you at the tomb of Holy Prophet (PBUH) on same day. He said “I didn’t go”. The third one said, “At the same day I saw you at the tomb of Ghaus Pak (R.A). He said “I didn’t go”. People asked then “what was that”? He replied, “That was my inside”. It is in the prophetic tradition also that when prophet (PBUH) went to Mairaj Sharif (journey of ascension), He (PBUH) passed by the grave of Moses (AS) and saw that Moses (AS) was offering his prayers in his grave. He (PBUH) went up and saw Moses (AS) was there too. These are the inner entities. The Shaikh is the one who has these inner entities so now when you will call upon Shaikh the body will not go there. That would be one of his entities.  Some of the inner entities take the state of jinn or an angel and that will possess power and will come for his help. Then that entity will goes inside you. It’s heard that jinni also get into the body. In the same way that entity enters into the body. Once that entity of Shaikh will get into your body then your state and way of life and your behavior will become as of Shaikh. So then it is called "Fana-fi-Shaikh". Don’t you understand? Then it is called "Fana-fi-Shaikh".

Shafqat Hussian: Meaning the personality of Shaikh diffuses into.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Personality! “That entity”.

Shafqat Hussian: That means his characteristics, his character and his education.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Not the education even. That very entity (creature); either you take that as a jinni, an angel that got into the body but this (creature of Shaikh) does not remain there all the time. That’s up to him whether it stays there for one day, two days, three days or even for one second. In the same way there are entities of the Prophet (PBUH) also. Once they enter into some body he is called “Fana-fi-Rasool”. Those who say that he (Yousuf Lahori) did claim to be prophet, he (Yousuf Lahori) did not claim for the prophet hood i.e (he meant that) there was continuity in him.

 Shafqat Hussian: Meaning, he is at the stage of “Fana-fi-Rasool”

Syedna Gohar Shahi: I talked about the “Fana-fi-Rasool”. Once some thing (spiritual entity) of Holy Prophet (PBUH) gets into the body, at that time the spiritual angels feel that (spiritual entity) to be as Prophet (PBUH). Don’t you understand? In the same way there is some thing that belongs to Allah; called Jussa-Toufiq-e-Elahi. When the saints, prophets have got so much of powers, will there be no power in Allah! That is something that belongs to Him; Jussa-Toufiq-e-Elahi. Once that enters into your body, at that time it’s uttered from the mouth “Ana–al–Haq” i.e “I am God”. Bayazid Bastami (R.A) also said so during such condition. He said at that time. Once he got into his senses he asked people, “If I say again, kill me”. Then people tried to kill him. He asked them why didn’t you kill me. People replied we couldn’t kill you. Then that would not be Bayazid; that would be the One (Allah) who was speaking. That is the stage of “Fana-fi-Allah”. Now stage of “Fana-fi-Allah” also does not stay all the times in saints. That also happens occasionally in them. At that time the revelation is prevailed upon the saints and things are uttered by their mouths. This all happens in that very stage. At that time anybody who appears before their eyes he is appeared before the eyes of God. During such condition, when Sultan Sahib used to get out of his home, any of the Hindu who used to look upon him, automatically started reciting kalima. It’s written in the books of Sultan Sahib.

Shafqat Hussian: Shah Sahib: Human personality is very valuable for me. We have heard from our forefathers and religious scholars and read in the books and even we have read in the Holy Quran that if you want to recognize God, recognize yourself.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: That’s not to recognize yourself, if you want to recognize God recognize your nafs (ego/ Self).

Shafqat Hussian: Yes, sorry. Recognize your Nafs (self). Now my self and I are correlative, until I am alive how can I be important? To study the being of Allah and to recognize Allah, I need to study my self (nafs).

Syedna Gohar Shahi: No, No, then the knowledge of this is mysticism.

Shafqat Hussian:  Knowledge of mysticism! I am trying to say that an infidel is also like me, he too has a self (nafs) along with him. It is with the Hindu as well as with a Christian.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: The one whom Nafs (self) is dirty dog, he is unclean. Either he is Christian or Muslim only his tongue is clean he is not cleaned from inside. He is just a parrot. Now if a parrot keeps on chanting Allah Allah, he will remain a parrot for the whole of his life. Until this Allah Allah does not get inside, you can’t be a firm Muslim. Now learn that very knowledge by which you can recognize nafs (self). when you will hit upon your self, find out where is that located then once you provide it the medicine, it will start moving and then you will be shown its shapes. Then you will see that a dog has been wondering along with you. Some body is shown that in the dreams, some one is shown in the Kashf (Intuitionism). Then when you will carry on then you will be shown that dog has become weak. His shape has become like an ox. His shape has become like male goat. It will be shown as along. This is a work of guide unless you don’t catch a guide it will not happen.

Shafqat Hussian: Well, I can’t leave the children and parents, but I also want Allah. Is it possible?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: It is possible. Your heart beat is always empty whether you stay among your children or sleeping or you are walking. There is always tik tik (heart beats), so just convert that heart beats into chanting of Allah Allah. You do all those same works, just convert your heart beats into Allah Allah and you will find Allah. The reason is that Allah is not related to them (children etc). He is related to your heart. That rosary present in must be converted into Allah Allah.

Bhule Shah says, “The bead of our heart chants Allah Allah”. Just engage it in chanting of Allah and do rest of all that what you were doing before. Then as the chanting of Allah Allah will take place in you, your heart and love will automatically be directed towards Allah. It will not start right now. You know we too have children and wife. We do care for them and we take care of it (indicating towards heart) as well that it may keep working and chanting of Allah may continue. Then that stage has come that either I drive or sleep, Allah Allah keeps on. That stage comes. Then chant Bismilla alongwith chanting of Allah Allah. The work will be blessed. So once before starting the work chant Allah and during the work also Allah Allah then there will be abundance of blessings everywhere. It happens. You will have to sacrifice some time for this. We will have you here for 2 – 4 days or tell you. Adopt this method and we will also pay attention. It happens,  that’s why today millions of people are following us. Our beard is also shorter than the hierarch; we don’t have rochet. We haven’t turban even.

Shafqat Hussian: Whatever we had heard about you, we have found totally different than that. There is nothing traditional. There is not any thing formal.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: We engage the hearts of people in chanting of Allah Allah. This is understood that anybody can come for this and experiment; even if Allah does not wish, yet for time being, for experiment will start the chanting of Allah Allah for few days so that he may have a consolation. When Sultan Sahib learnt this knowledge from Abad-ul-rehman Sahib he said at that time that I don’t know how to put Allah Allah into the hearts of people. They have the dogs inside them, how the dogs will chant the name Allah. A dog came before him and he looked upon that very dog and the dog started chanting the name of Allah. Immediately this news reached to prophet (PBUH), he was called and was asked what did you do? He said I was just experimenting on this that if become successful over here then I will be successful over there too. We have done lot of experiments like that and we are doing so.

 Shafqat Hussian: There is one very small question. One is the respect and the other thing is the worship. What is the difference between worship and respect? 

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Those who show respect, obtain the benevolence and those who don't remain deprived. If there is a respect along with the worship, there is benevolence. If there is no respect along with the worship (then there is no benevolence). People go to Khana Kaba. You see that they are lying down reading the Quran like a Book and then they are sleeping, putting on the floor. This is disrespect & deprival. Being in Khana Kaba they are disrespect & deprived. Mahmood Gaznawi went in a village. Battle was going on there. He was given a room there to stay at night. He was feeling tired. He looked up and saw Quran lying there. He thought “it is Quran, how can I sleep beneath this”. He stood for the whole of night and Allah rewarded him with the sainthood. There is benevolence for the respectful. Those remain deprived even going to Khana Kaba. Have you understood this?

Shafqat Hussian: We wander about for the whole of day, some time we sit along with you then with somebody else and then with few others. We adopt different kind of education and concepts form different places, so this way different kind of thoughts and trends and concepts are developed. Well in that kind of mix situation I went somewhere. There people were dancing on drum beat and during that time there was man he was very emotional and was looking towards the ROZA (holy shrine) and he was saying fill me please fill me. So my attention was going towards him also. He then prostrated. At times, he did prostrate and then dance. Well, that is an idea of a poet but it’s very tough. So I could understand a little bit because Allah has granted me a bit of sense. I was confused that he prostrated before whom?  Did he prostrate before Allah or before him (who resides in shrine)? That is some people say that going at tombs and to offer prayers over there and to prostrate etc. So what is this Silsala. How much it is wrong or right?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: No, see there are few such things like one prostration is honorifics.

Shafqat Hussian: The first question I asked was the same what is the difference between respect and worship?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: One is honorifics prostration and the other one is worship prostration. The one that is performed over there is honorifics prostration. As they prostrate in the prayers they don’t prostrate like that. They don’t prostrate they just bow down their heads. Bowing down head is different where as prostrate of worship is something different. In that prostration Subhan Rabi Allilla is recited where as nothing is recited during this. In this the head is bowed down that I have handed over myself to you. This honorifics prostrate used to be in the time of Maula Alli and then Majadad Sahib abandoned it. In the days of many saints honorifics prostration took place and many saints liked it too. Now it is up to Majadad. Some of the Majadad says that if someone is bowing down the head, let it do, handes over himself, let it do. Allama Iqbal (R.A) says, “A seed brings flowers and fruits after being buried into dust”. Concept of many people is let it mix in the dust. Majdad is the one who can alter a bit. A Majdad came and said that women can not pay pilgrimage to the tombs and the second one came and said that they can! The first one said according to his age where as the second one said according to his. Alla Hazrat (Ahmed Raza Barelvi) forbade that they can not go. There were no colleges and schools in those days. Women had separate festivals at the tombs. They used to go into the tombs and they were kidnapped over there. So now there was no other way, so Alla Hazrat forbade that women cannot go. Now what is the need of going at the tombs if they are to be kidnapped they can be from schools and colleges too.

Shafqat Hussian:  If they even don’t go anywhere they can be kidnapped from home.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Yes they will be kidnapped from home. There were restrictions in that age.  Majdad has the rights. What was your question?

Shafqat Hussian: My question was that how much it’s correct and that you have answered.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: That I have answered and then there is question of going at the tombs.

Shafqat Hussian: How much can be begged from them?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: I tell you. You have got a paper and diary. The one who has given you, I can request him too that get me this. I can request you also that kindly grant me. Isn’t it?

Shafqat Hussian: Subhan Allah. This is correct.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: And your intention is to give it away, either you ask me or you just give away. That is between him and you where as my dealing is with you.

Shafqat Hussian: Shah Sahib for its conformation this is also present there that on the night of migration, Hazrat Ali slept on the bed of Holy Prophet (PBUH) and in the holy Quran it is mentioned like this “that man bought the will of God”. So does it mean that the will of God can bartered?

Syedna Gohar Shahi:  There is a position of saint. Every saint doesn’t have that. Now if there is something to be given to you, one has to ask Allah. There are also people whom Allah says that whatever you think appropriate give away. This is a position of saint. That is the position of those who are happy with God and God is happy with them. It is in the Quran that then God is pleased with them and he is pleased with God.  The one who reaches that stage of Radhia Maradhia (God is pleased with them and he is pleased with God), they are given authority by Allah.

Saed Naeem Gilani:  For the information of public and personally for my own information I want to ask a question from you.  Whose disciple are you for this knowledge of Zanway?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: I mean to say that I received the apparent knowledge form the one that possessed apparent knowledge and then I was shown only this path by those who belong to tombs (darbar) and my more of the completion is due to the Chila (meditation). I did some of Chila at the mountain. There also it’s written “place of Chila”. At Laal Bhagg in which I had the Chila, there also it’s written “place of Chila”. For two years, I lived in the mountains and one year at Lal Bagh. And then the holy prophet came before me and told me a lot about this. So whatever I have learned, it is from the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Well now people say that He (PBUH) is no more (I seek the refuge of Allah). Few people believe that He can not move a bee even, whereas, few believe that He (PBUH) is an ever and living Prophet. Don’t you get? We have learnt a lesson from him (PBUH) because we believe that Holy Prophet (PBUH) is a living Prophet. We have seen Him (PBUH). We have seen Him (PBUH) thousands of times. Whatever the information we require, we go to Him (PBUH). That is why how can we believe that He (PBUH) is not there. He (PBUH) is there for us but the one who has not seen him, He might not be present for him.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Well, Sir, different worldly scholars have put plenty of accusations and verdicts upon you and your organization. But I don’t think that people who have not met you and not seen you, they should go on talking about this Silsala of yours that is continued.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: They have their own faith, whatever they may write.

Saed Naeem Gilani: We have met and something has been obliged upon us that whatever our eyes have seen and our heart has felt, we will write that honestly. This is obligation upon the journalists but yet your permission is required. Will you grant us the permission that whatever we felt by heart while talking to you, we may put that into writing.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: You are allowed, whatever the way you want, you may write! As you wish you may write. We knew that people would be here.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Whatever we have seen in this gathering, especially the behavior of your followers/lovers on their seats.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: You write each and everything and the way you want.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Is your permission granted?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Neither you write in admiration nor against, whatever the truths you have seen, write about that.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Is the permission granted for this?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Well, The question is left regarding opposition; you would have read “Takbeer”. Those are all dreams and that’s also talk with somebody else and they accused us by this. Now they will say to the journalist he did the wrong thing. You study that book Rohani Safar (Spiritual Journey).

Saed Naeem Gilani: In fact Sir, the journalism has been involved into sectarianism.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Trust is lost.

Saed Naeem Gilani: I am a journalist and what I need to do is that even if I am interviewing a Jew, I must write the correct thing honestly, if he is saying the truth because he said the truth. And that Jew is saying the right thing and on the other hand Yasir Arafat is saying something wrong but I what I will do is that I will write that wrongly whatever is said by him i.e I will prove that true whatever wrong has been said by Yasir Arafat.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Sectarianism has been disseminated for a while now.

Saed Naeem Gilani: God has given us the chance to meet you.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: More sectarianism has taken place in journalism.

Shafqat Hussian: I consider the journalism of today as an abuse.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Please say a bit about tareekat (mysticism). Our younger brother has asked many questions. I will request you that because it’s your common lesson that is why I felt that as you explain in easiest way as you start the zikr-e-qalb (heart meditation) of the people.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: I try to make it understandable, right.

Saed  Naeem Gilani: You make it understandable, so that they may be understood in simple language. But the theosophical knowledge that is present in the books or that is present in the Libraries. In the Naqshabandi and Chishti systems, secret commemoration (Zikr-e-khafi), Zikr-e-Jali etc are mentioned in the books. In that system Sir, they have told that such commemoration will be done, benevolence of that very prophet will be received. They have written about the benevolence and colours of the lights (noor) of all the prophets.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: We have given the whole sketch in our book Minar-e-Noor (Minaret of Light).

Saed Naeem Gilani: You have this very system over here?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Yes, this is the one.

Saed Naeem Gilani: This very lesson for an ordinary person but what about special who enter in your chain.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: The ones whom Zikr (heart meditation) starts, they come for the next step then.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Are there higher classes present for them?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: In the book Minara-Noor (Minaret of Light), we have written completely. We have written till the vision (of Allah).

Saed Naeem Gilani: Well, you just said in your book that you don’t bait (take oath of allegiance). What is the reason for that?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: There is a reason for this. There are many people who don’t want to bait (take oath of allegiance) they just want the benevolence. There are many who are bait (have taken the oath of allegiance) by some body and they don’t want to leave their guide.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Don’t they want to be aspirant?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: They don’t want to leave their guide (peer).

Saed Naeem Gilani: And they do want this heart meditation also to be started.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Yes they also want the heart meditation to begin. That’s why since we are Qadri, they will say “he is Qadri, we will have to become Qadri”. Therefore, they won’t come to this side. Our purpose is that whoever comes, should get benevolence.

Syedna Naeem Gilani: A small question is for the information of the public. Your name is Riaz Ahmad Gohar Shahi, so where does the nickname (Takhalas) start in it?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Of Gohar Shahi?

Saed Naeem Gilani: Riaz Ahmad is one name.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Gohar Shahi was the name of my maternal grand father.  His name was Gohar Shah…..Gohar Ali Shah.

Saed Naeem Gilani: This is something for the sake of people, they must know this.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: No, (Actually) his name was Gohar Ali Shah. Now the village we live in is also named as Dhok Gohar Shah.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Is it the area of Rawalpindi?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Yes, it’s the area of Gujar Khan. Then Gohar Shahi means native from the “Dhok (village) Gohar Shah”. Also consider from his progeny.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Well, now you are here to spread this Silsala in this world but some day you will have to leave this world also.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: It’s right!

Saed Naeem Gilani: So keeping that in view what preparations have you made for your lovers? Do you follow the method of Caliphs and appoint caliph?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: No, we don’t use the name Caliph. But in fact he is a caliph.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Well, so you call them leader (Ameer) or something?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: leaders (Ameer) are appointed.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Any in charge of specific unit area?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Suppose someone has learnt the whole knowledge, and he will be asked to go in certain area to tell people about Zikr (meditation) and to give them the Zikr. We have to just start the work either you say caliph or leader. Our purpose is to spread mission.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Every body talks for a common Pakistani, what message will you give? I mean through our magazine what message would you like to give?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: The message for them is that learn the knowledge by which Passionate love of Allah is gained. This is our message. “Learn spiritualism, no matter what religion or sect you belong to”.

Saed Naeem Gilani: This is very objectionable question?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Now I tell you if you involve any infidel in chanting of Allah Allah, he will become a Muslim, if any Muslim starts chanting Allah Allah, he will become a momin and if a momin keep on chanting Allah Allah he will become a saint.

Saed Name Gilani: Write this! Write this! Write Write! The real thing is this one which is echoing. The thing that is echoing in experimentation is that where from Sir Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi has brought this philosophy that everybody can come to me. A board is present in front the tomb of Quaid-e-Azam where it is written that no matter what religion or sect you belong to!

Syedna Gohar Shahi: When The Holy Prophet (PBUH) came, He (PBUH) did not belong to any religion or sect. Where were the Muslims at that time? Where were the Muslims? All the Hanood (non-believer) used to come. Then He (PBUH) imparted the light into their hearts. The light was transferred into their hearts and later on they became Muslims. I believe that if you involve an infidel in chanting of Allah Allah, he will become a Muslim. If a Muslim keeps on chanting he will become a momin and if momin keeps on chanting he will become a saint, this is my intention!

Saed Naeem Gilani: This is enough explanation.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: I gave sermon in the temple of Sikhs. It’s video is present.

Shafqat Hussian: It’s very clear that when Holy Propht(PBUH) came and started his preaching………..

Syedna Gohar Shahi:  No Muslim was there.

Shafqat Hussian: There was not any Muslim, only Christians and Hindus were present and there were some other communities, whoever was inspired by Him (PBUH), he/she accepted the Islam. So the preaching of Islam is continued in the same way today as it was in that time.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: that’s right.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Well, you are spreading this Silsala by the help of writings and books…..

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Audios, videos, books and the English translations of the books are there.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Regular practice is continued.

Syedna Gohar Shahi: Yes, regular practice is continued.

Saed Naeem Gilani: Are there any centers for this so that people may contact?

Syedna Gohar Shahi: There are plenty of, hundreds are there in Pakistan. Plenty are abroad as well. There are many till America, Canada and Britain.






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